Words and lyrics have always been the most fruitful tools in Nat Wolff’s imagination. Having begun writing and performing alongside his brother Alex as child stars with The Naked Brothers Band – a mockumentary-style TV series that grew into a real band – they’ve since evolved into their current musical moniker, Nat & Alex Wolff, with two acclaimed studio albums under their belt and a third in the works. As Nat has grown as a person, so has his craft, maturing towards sophisticated, introspective lyricism and emotive melodies that draw from his eternal influences: powerhouse songwriters like Tom Waits, Warren Zevon and The Beatles. This has coincided with an acting career that has seen Nat perform opposite Christoph Waltz in The Consultant, star in Gia Coppola’s cautionary tale of internet stardom, Mainstream, and is set to join Mark Wahlberg in Play Dirty.

Speaking together for this feature, Nat and Alex Wolff sit side-by-side on their tour bus, parked up in Baltimore halfway through travelling across the US and Canada opening for Billie Eilish’s Hit Me Hard and Soft: The Tour.

Alex Wolff: Hey Nathaniel, how do you know you’ve written a great song, or a song worth pursuing?
Nat Wolff: Well Alex [laughs], a lot of the time I know when I send it to you and you say, “We’ve got to record that one.” But sometimes it’s because I wrote it in a really short period of time as opposed to labouring over it. Sometimes you know you’re spending too much time with something, and then occasionally a song will come really quickly.

AW: If you’re struggling with a song, do you push through that period when you’re like, “The song’s not working but I know there’s a good thing and I’ll pick it up next week,” or do you go, “Fuck it, let’s toss it out?”
NW: A lot of times the first verse and chorus will come to me, or I’ll have a lyric or melody idea but I get stuck and instead of pushing through I just set it aside and come back to it later. I don’t like to force it. Most songs we record have an effortless quality to them that I don’t necessarily have with all the songs I write. There are so many songs we write that we don’t do anything with.

AW: What’s the difference between the songs you write on piano and ones you write on guitar?
NW: The songs I write on piano end up being much more melodic with far-reaching melodies, and the songs I write on guitar tend to be more folky. I used to write songs on guitar that were a little bit more wild and rock ‘n’ roll, but now sometimes I’ll take a piano ballad I’ve written and speed it up in the studio because, like we’re on this tour now and it’s much more fun to…

AW: …Play rock songs?
NW: Play rock songs. It’s fun to play a few slow songs, but especially when you’re opening [for someone] the crowd want to be getting excited, jumping up and down.

AW: It’s always just fun to play loud, rock songs.
NW: I love when we write a song and it’s slightly slower but because it’s got an interesting ballad melody, we then make it faster, put a beat to it, and it makes it a more interesting heavy rock song.

AW: What’s your favourite lyric you’ve written on the past two albums? If you were to pick one from each album.
NW: What was the album we did when we were little kids that we never put out?

AW: Leftovers?
NW: Was it called Leftovers? You know Alex and I have been making music together since we were how old? Six and three? Five and two? I think the lyrics to 25 on Table For Two sum up where I was at that point. The other one from that album would be Winter Baby because I wrote it when I was sixteen and we’d played it live for however long – it’s so wild playing it at a Billie show, everyone is singing along and I can remember writing it in Spanish class. Writing “All the love is flowing through my heart” on a little bit of paper, because I was always spaced out in Spanish class. Now it’s kind of seen as a new song of ours because we just never put it on an album. I remember bringing it home, showing it to you and then we recorded a really terrible version of it.

AW: We’ve done like fifteen versions of it.
NW: But this one is so by far the best. 25 is also very reflective of where I was, starting to feel the weight of adulthood. Then from this album, I think it’d probably be Brake Lights, “Will we be watching the brake lights/In the back of the Honda for the rest of our lives/Cause I’ve been crying a few too many nights/And I wanna cry less.” Because again, I got to a certain age where I could reflect on my childhood and through – how long’s it been? Ten years of therapy? How long have you been in therapy?

AW: Longer, I’ve been in therapy since I was ten, so sixteen years.
NW: That song is definitely me reflecting on the years of therapy, my childhood and how it influences my romantic and emotional life as an adult.

AW: What’s your favourite Pavement song?
NW: [pauses] Can I come back to this?

AW: OK, what’s your favourite Billie Eilish song?
NW: That’s hard. I think CHIHIRO is such an amazing song, and also I got to be in the video. It’s kind of a club banger, but also a sensitive Radiohead song.

AW: She’s the master of that.
NW: It hits as hard as any of those Charli XCX songs, but also as soft as Kid A.

AW: What’s your favourite Tom Waits lyric? But don’t do an obvious one, what’s a deep cut you love?
NW: I feel pressure not to say one of my favourites now, I don’t know what’s a classic and what’s a deep cut, a lot of people I love and respect really don’t know Tom Waits as well as I think they will.

AW: What comes to mind?
NW: What comes to mind is Martha, which is my favourite.

AW: That’s not a big one. Rain Dogs is a big album I feel, what album is Martha on?
NW: Closing Time, which has all my favourites. It came out in ‘73 and it’s him on the piano. I actually have a picture of it framed above my piano at home.

AW: The clock?
NW: [laughs] Alex makes fun of me because when I first bought a house I ordered on Etsy…

AW: He’s not really a dimensions kind of guy, he doesn’t get dimensions, sizes.
NW: I ordered a clock with Tom Waits on it…

AW: Really, really small.
NW: Really small.

AW: It looks like a little kid glued the parts together.
NW: It was thirteen dollars and I thought, “This is a fucking amazing deal.” But Martha, that last line, [puts on a Tom Waits impersonation] “I remember quiet evenings/ Trembling close to you… Those were the days of roses, poetry and prose/And, Martha, all I had was you, and all you had was me.” God, that’s such a fucking great song.

“Whenever I’m performing, writing, acting, the voices in my head tend to go away, it’s usually before or after where the neurosis hits.”

AW: If you had to spend time talking creatively with either Warren Zevon, Tom Waits or Bob Dylan, who would you choose? Just talking about lyrics, songs, something creative, you’re having dinner with them maybe.
NW: I’d definitely say Warren Zevon because he was one of my dad’s best friends…

AW: Our dad.
NW: We have the same dad. Warren Zevon was one of our dad’s best friends and he died when I was about seven, but he gave me a leather jacket, and he always wore a leather jacket. In our house he was the ultimate lyric writer, songs like Keep Me in Your Heart, which he wrote when he was dying of cancer, even the fun ones like Werewolves of London, Excitable Boy, god Excitable Boy is such a fucking great song.

AW: Lawyers, Guns and Money.
NW: Lawyers, Guns and Money, I was going to get that tattooed.

AW: Desperados Under the Eaves.
NW: [sings] “Still waking up in the mornings with shaking hands/And I’m trying to find a girl who understands me.” So, Warren Zevon because he really did love our dad and that would be really meaningful. Also dad always says Warren would love to hear our songs. I would love to play him a song and for him to play to me.

AW: And if you had to have a musician come out and do a solo with us live, would you have it be Prince, Jimi Hendrix or Miles Davis?
NW: Wow, oh my god. Such a great question.

AW: There’s no judgement, but think carefully. Because Prince would make it a fourteen minute song and it’d become all about him. Jimi Hendrix, we wouldn’t know what state he’s in, and Miles Davis might be playing notes we can’t handle.
NW: I was going to say that, Miles Davis might be too interesting for our music. Maybe just a little bit too out there. I think you’d have to go Jimi Hendrix. I love Prince to death but I think I’d rather just give Prince the stage and I’ll walk off. Hendrix could come in and rip a major solo.

AW: If you had to have one actor be in your band, or one musician you could do a movie with, who would it be?
NW: One more time?

AW: An actor to play in your band, or a musician to be in a film.
NW: So an actor who is kind of a musician?

AW: They don’t even have to be, maybe there’s something about them.
NW: Quickly, I’ll go back to the Pavement question. We didn’t play this in the Pavement movie [Nat plays Pavement founding member Scott Kannberg in the band’s recent biopic] – the movie is called Pavements – apparently it’s fucking amazing. I haven’t seen it yet but the reviews are insane. It premiered last night and Scott was bummed I wasn’t there and I feel bad but you know, we were in Toronto with Billie. Major Leagues was the song that introduced me to Pavement when I was thirteen. Honestly, they’re so amazing and so underrated, and now I get to be friends with them and make a film with them. Their lyrics are so seemingly absurd and nonsensical, but then so meaningful and moving.

AW: Can you answer my actors and musicians question?
NW: OK, try it again.

AW: I’ve asked you this question three times now, but I’ll ask a fourth time…
NW: [speaking into the microphone] He wants to be cool in public but he’s way nicer to me at home.

AW: [moves the camera so it’s not facing them] Dude, I’m trying to be an interviewer right now, so I’m trying to be mean, I have them on mute right now. [both laugh] OK, an actor to act in one of your movies, no rehearsal, and then an actor that you’ve heard can play music to join us for a live performance?
NW: I think you can be an interesting personality, charismatic and not self-conscious and not know how to act and survive in an acting environment, helped by the director and cast, but I don’t think you can do that with music – you have to be able to play. Dude, I would pick Billie and put her in a movie, because she’s more charismatic than anyone I’ve ever met.

“I feel like if I’m making music with you or if I’m acting, even if I’m just going about my day, I’m trying not to hide the way I feel and rock with where I’m at.”

AW: There were two people I thought you might pick, Billie was one. You’ve previously said that this other person would be good on screen…
NW: Oh, Matt Berninger from The National. When he’s on stage he’s sort of like a stage actor. He doesn’t overperform, but he emotionally invests in each song as if he’s coming up with the lyrics for the very first time. That would be amazing. Then an actor playing music… I think Ryan Gosling.

AW: Kind of cheating, but yeah. I was thinking of someone else.
NW: You know Jesse Plemons is really good at playing piano, who were you thinking of?

AW: Matthew McConaughey, for whatever reason I thought he’d have some sort of musical ability and be able to sit down and play. So last night…
NW: You have an eyelash on you, do you want to make a wish? [picks the eyelash off Alex’s face]

AW: I wish you’d give good answers. [blows the eyelash]
NW: The amount you’d be going off the walls if anyone was asking us these questions.

AW: What do you mean?
NW: You’re an insane interviewee. But as an interviewer, you’re pretty fucking strict. But I like it, you’re keeping me on message. Can I just say this thing? Our visualiser for Soft Kissing Hour has just arrived and it’s super exciting because Billie produced this song for us. When we were speaking about the new album, I forgot that Soft Kissing Hour is probably my favourite – “Forget the day before us/ forget the baseball mitt.” That lyric might be the one, only because I was going to cut it because our mom, and I think Billie’s mom too, were like, “What does the baseball mitt line mean?” And I was like, oh shit, maybe it’s thrown the vibe. Then Alex goes, “That baseball mitt line is my favourite because it reminds me of being little kids when we would put our baseball mitts under the mattress to loosen up.” It’s just another song about growing up. Our childhood was so intense and is so imprinted on us, it’s been a lot to evolve from, so the songs on this album, even your songs…

AW: I’m so in interviewer mode I forgot I even have songs on the album.
NW: So you’re not just an interviewer, we’re actually in a band together. You’re the ‘& Alex Wolff’.

AW: Oh, that’s so cool! Last night you went on stage full of emotion, let’s talk about that. Sometimes you write songs from a sad place, Kissing Hour was born from a warm, longing place, Brake Lights is written from a darker place. What do you think is most fruitful for you in terms of writing songs, coming from a bad place or like, “Damn, I feel so good I want to write a song!”?
NW: I love what Thom Yorke says, “Once we stop listening to sad music we know we’re all in trouble.” I feel like if I’m making music with you or if I’m acting, even if I’m just going about my day, I’m trying not to hide the way I feel and rock with where I’m at. They say that the desire to feel happy is a negative experience but accepting however you feel in the moment is a positive experience because then you can move on. So with last night’s show, we had these two toros on this tour in Québec and Toronto where I felt like I was running on pure adrenaline and excitement, and then this third show I started to feel this kind of dread and sadness. I thought, I can either do a few jumping jacks and have a few Celsius drinks and try to move myself out of it, or I can just try and channel this into the music and think maybe there’s someone in the audience also feeling this way. I actually think it was my best show. Afterwards, I felt a huge wash of relief. We all have different ways of dealing with nerves, and one of the hardest parts of performing is the waiting. Whenever I’m performing, writing, acting, the voices in my head tend to go away, it’s usually before or after where the neurosis hits.

AW: I don’t have it so much before, I have it a lot after.
NW: And I have it a lot before. I’m like, “Oh god, what if I trip off the stage and die? What if I go to sing and it just sounds like a [makes a gasping noise]?” Then none of that happens. I remember my therapist telling me how they had this patient who was like, “I’m just so nervous because I have this huge test tomorrow and I know I’m nervous because I’m not ready.” And they replied, “Maybe you’re just nervous because you care.” I’ve found
that true…

AW: …And that student failed out of college.
NW: Yeah, he got a zero on his SATs. [both laugh] No, he actually did really well.

AW: Should your therapist be telling you about this other patient? There’s someone reading this article being like, “What the fuck?! Why does Nat Wolff know about my test?!” [both laugh] If you could only record in the studio or only perform live, what would you do? When do you feel the closest to music?
NW: Live.

AW: You see I would say studio. Even though I love playing live.
NW: And I also love the studio.

AW: I have one final question, what is your favourite song to sing live?
NW: I actually love doing the backgrounds to Lucky You, and I also love doing Soft Kissing Hour. That song has been crazy because you know, it’s a Billie Eilish show and we’re opening, so we were worried about people talking and stuff like that. But honestly, we do Soft Kissing Hour and it’s just Alex playing guitar and me singing, and the audience all put up their phone lights, you know, the new version of lighters, and they really listen. Then last night at the Toronto show, when that happened they all started singing the lyrics back even though the song’s not out, it’s just on YouTube… They were singing the lyrics and I had tears coming to my eyes, I think because I was feeling kind of angsty before the show, I had to keep myself from crying so I could keep singing. It was so beautiful to be a part of.

Interview originally published in The HERO Winter Annual 2024.